Partner Susan Thompson speaks with colleagues to mark International Women's Day 2022

Today is International Women’s Day 2022, a global day that celebrates the social, economic, cultural and political achievements of women and seeks to raise awareness against bias.  This year the theme is #BreakTheBias which asks us all to promote the imagining of a world free of bias, stereotypes and discrimination.

International Women’s Day started over 100 years ago but there are still very good reasons to mark it now: there is still a gender pay gap, violence against women and girls persists, and inequality in healthcare and education remains.

To mark the event at Simkins, I thought it a good time to speak with the Firm’s newest female partner, Deborah Jeff, who heads up the Family Law Department, and our new associate, Jessica Keal, who works with Deborah.  Their answers to my questions (some serious, some less so…) were, I am sure you will agree, thought-provoking indeed. I’m grateful to them both for making the time to speak with me.

Susan Thompson

 

In conversation: Deborah Jeff, Partner and Jessica Keal, Associate, Simkins’ Family team.

Deborah:    

It’s been fascinating comparing the different experiences Jessica and I have had so far in our lives and at our varying stages of career.  I qualified in 1997 whereas Jessica qualified in 2019 and there have been improvements for women in the law and generally since the 1990’s. 

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1.         What do you consider to be your biggest achievement, personal or professional?

Deborah:

I hope to have bigger personal and professional achievements yet, but building up a Family team from scratch beginning 16 years ago to an incredibly successful and profitable department was very fulfilling.  I was in my early thirties at the time and got our firm into all the major directories for the first time. It was great to lead the way for the business.

Jessica:

Getting my degree from Oxford. I worked incredibly hard and was pretty much a recluse for three years. I’m not sure I’d recommend anyone else follow my example, as university should be about more than just studying, but I’m proud of getting through it. 

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2.         Have you ever had to challenge an assumption about you and how did you do that?

Jessica:

Yes. As a female lawyer, and as a family lawyer specifically, people often make assumptions about me because of what I do. I am often asked if I hate marriage, if I hate men (I’m not sure where that one comes from) and I get challenged over why women should receive half of the marital assets when they haven’t worked for them, as if I am somehow contributing to a great conspiracy against male kind. It’s sometimes hard to imagine a male family lawyer being asked these questions. Educating people about their misconceptions has always been the best way to challenge these assumptions. Family law has developed to try to ensure equality between men and women in the divorce process and I support and encourage this goal. Family lawyers do not judge or seek to ‘punish’ any party to a relationship, nor do they strip someone of all their assets. I was trained to value fairness, minimise conflict and protect the vulnerable in marital breakdown, such as children. And no, I do not hate marriage.

Deborah:

I’ve experienced an element of that, but women also make assumptions about other women too.  About five years ago, on a dress down Friday at work I was walking back to my desk down the corridor onto which the boardrooms opened. A door opened, a woman came out and politely said ‘”My dear, would you copy these documents for me please, we need them in room 2 as soon as possible”.  I said I’d be glad to find someone from admin to help her.  She asked me if I wasn’t admin (we were all in jeans and jumpers that day) and I jokingly said no, I’m just an equity partner and nowhere near as skilled!  Her jaw fell through the floor and she apologised profusely, saying she of all people should have known better than to make such assumptions. 

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3.         Has another woman helped you amplify your voice and contribution and how?

Deborah:

Two women have led me personally and professionally.  My mother is a constant source of inspiration and strength personally.  Whilst she’s someone who stays very much in the background, her support and encouragement have in no small measure helped me achieve my aims over the years.  It’s that strength and support at home that has historically been undervalued in family life on divorce.  Not now, thank goodness.

Professionally, Sara Dixon at Firm Beliefs (her business at the time) was instrumental in convincing me of my potential both as a lawyer and a leader.  Thank you, Sara, you know who you are!

Jessica:

For me it was my mother too. I was a shy child and teenager and easily ignored. She never let me go unheard or unseen. When I was treated unfairly by my secondary school and they ignored my concerns, she fought my corner until everything was sorted out. When I wanted to become a lawyer, she spoke to her contacts and helped me approach them to arrange work experience. It is easy to underestimate how someone’s continual and unfaltering belief in you can help you accomplish things you did not think you were capable of. 

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4.         What commitment to helping women can you make?

Jessica:

To never allow a woman to feel unheard. Women face many challenging situations both in their personal and professional life, and trying to manage them on their own only adds further pressure. Whether this is imposter syndrome, working in a male dominated profession or dealing with outdated attitudes towards women, we can learn from and support each other and I would never want another woman to feel I wasn’t there to help.

Deborah:

Yes, I think that’s when women support each other the most, particularly with shared experiences. 

I love training younger lawyers, I see it as part of the legacy of any lawyer mid-career onwards.  I had fantastic training and if I can pass on the baton to the younger lawyers now, that must enrich the future leaders of our practice and profession.   For me, maintaining a sense of humour and humility throughout is also invaluable and I try to lead by example with that in those I train.  You’re never too important to make the tea. 

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5.         What changes have you seen from male colleagues over the years?

Deborah:

Most recently, I’ve seen a greater acceptance of women at senior level, partner and equity partner.  In a healthy working environment, male colleagues don’t see women as a threat, rather as equals who are contributing to the strength and diversity of the practice.

Jessica:

They are much more aware of how some types of behaviour can be intimidating or offensive to women. I can remember when I first started working in PR, there were rumours emails were being circulated around the PR firm ranking the female members of staff on attractiveness. The idea of that happening now just seems unthinkable to me. If it were to happen, I’d feel confident that any complaints would be taken seriously.

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6.         What is your favorite quotation?

Jessica:

‘People will forget what you said, they will forget what you did, but they will never forget how you made them feel’.

Deborah:

I remember years ago being struck by the common sense comment of Shirley Chisholm, the first African-American woman in the US Congress:

“Tremendous amounts of talent are being lost to our society just because that talent wears a skirt”. 

Whilst we’ve made leaps forward from that time, it still sums up the idiocy of sexism simply and beautifully. 

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7.         What 3 steps would you take now if you could to create change – no holds barred!

Jessica:

i.          More research and funding into medical conditions that effect women disproportionately. Migraines, for example. Women are more likely to have them, and they often have them worse than men. I suffer from them myself, and a male colleague once told me it was just ‘a bad headache’. This dismissive attitude is damaging. Women’s pain is often not taken seriously, and this needs to change.

ii.         I want to improve awareness of how frightening it can be for women walking home alone at night. I was surprised when my male friends didn’t just assume that a woman on her own at night would be nervous, and they were surprised when I told them about the measures my female friends and I take to try to keep ourselves safe. There is this disconnect between the female experience and male perception. I hope that with greater awareness, women can start to feel safer at night.

iii.         Better support for victims of all forms of domestic abuse – and better understanding amongst the courts and the police. I am well aware that domestic abuse effects men too, but statistics show women are much more likely to be victims of domestic abuse than men. Abuse is not only physical and/or sexual violence. Psychological abuse, such as financial and coercive control are common and poorly understood. It can take victims many years to realise they have been subject to this form of abuse and it is difficult for them to get the support and help they need. Psychological abuse, by its nature, often leads to the victim being isolated from all who could help them. Increasing awareness of the types of behaviour that constitute this form of abuse can help victims to understand they are being abused and will ensure they are taken seriously when they do seek help.

Deborah:

I completely agree, the medical issues are up there as a priority for greater understanding of friends, family and colleagues, absolutely.

As a child of the seventies, a lot of the restrictions on women’s success when I was growing up were psychologically based.  We weren’t taught to expect too much career wise, things were only really beginning to change back then.  You can see that when old comedy shows are repeated and make us cringe; what was acceptable then in terms of women’s roles and how they were depicted on TV was appalling.  Psychologically, I remember thinking at the time that any greater options career wise than the generation before would be great. I’m sure it’s much different now but some form of teaching from primary school upwards to dispel those mind blocks on what we as women can expect and achieve for ourselves would have been a huge help in the eighties and nineties in my peer group. 

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8.         Break the bias – what does that mean to you?

Deborah:

For me, it means finally extinguishing the last barriers placed in our way because of our sex, sexuality, creed, colour or culture and finally removing the glass ceiling.

Jessica:

The society we live in now is a product of a world that was historically designed by men for men. Therefore, bias towards men is unavoidable. The formula used to determine optimum office temperature is based on the metabolic rate of men. Crash test dummies with female proportions were not introduced until 2011. Personal Protective Equipment is based on male proportions. Women are starting from a position of trying to fit in to a world built for men, instead of having a chance to rebuild this world from scratch to remove this bias. This is what break the bias means to me. Improving understanding of how gender bias is everywhere, even where you may not have expected to find it, but its presence makes life harder (and on some occasions, more dangerous) for women. 

Deborah:

Yes, it’s throughout our world and society and we’re gradually chipping away at it. 

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9.         What can the legal profession do more or less of to break the bias?

Deborah:

I think as a profession we have made leaps forward since I qualified in the late 1990’s.  Unconscious bias is the largest issue needing to be tackled. Challenging the foundations of that will make us stronger as a profession, undoubtedly.

Jessica:

By seeking to expose these everyday gender biases and then actually taking action to make things better. These could be small things, such as ensuring women aren’t working in uncomfortable temperatures, to ensuring a woman’s decision to have a child does not affect her career progression.

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10.       Last book purchased and why?

Deborah:

Charles Dickens – A Life, by Claire Tomlin.  I have been meaning to read this for some time and it was worth waiting for.  Claire Tomlin brings alive the kind but complex genius Dickens was and is brutally honest in sharing his personality traits and parts of his life that were meant to remain private in Victorian society.  You end the book feeling as if you’ve known Dickens yourself.  A masterpiece. 

Jessica:

Humankind: A Hopeful History, by Rutger Bregman. It’s an interesting approach to the history of humanity which seeks to challenge the notion that humans are inherently bad, and have to be conditioned by society to behave kindly to one another. It is really persuasively argued. With everything that is going on in the world right now, it is a very welcome addition to my bookshelf. 

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11.       What did you learn most about yourself during the pandemic? 

Deborah:

I think there were so many life lessons learned during that time, it brought out the best and worst of humanity.  Much more of the best though, which was humbling and very moving.

Jessica:

For me it was that I’m more sociable than I realised. I always thought I liked being by myself, but that was when it was my choice to be on my own and I could go and see my friends whenever I wanted. Spending long periods in isolation, where I don’t have a choice as to whether I see people or not, is a very different experience. I was lucky in that once lock down had lifted and I wasn’t isolating, I could spend time with family and friends again, but not everyone has that option. Some people don’t have friends and family nearby and the pandemic taught me how draining that must be. Loneliness is a real epidemic in London and I want to do more to help those experiencing this.

Deborah:

My biggest lesson during that time was the absolute importance of boundaries and the need to keep checking they are in place!  Taking my own advice, basically.  Family lawyers have been busier than ever since lockdown, and the tendency when you love what you do is to keep working till all hours.  Having my family reminding me of the need for time out – and replacing my laptop for cutlery as it’s time to sit down for dinner - was and is all important.

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12.       What song do you dance in your kitchen to 😊?

Deborah:

Anything by the Bee Gees! I can’t believe that’s out there now, I’m a massive fan.

Jessica:

Affirmation by Savage Garden. It’s such a positive song. 

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13.       What are you looking forward most to in 2022?  

Jessica:

Moving into my new flat. I started the house buying process last July and I’m still not in. Fingers crossed for March!

Deborah:

Time with family and friends without restrictions of lockdown and getting on a plane abroad again for the first time in over 2 years.  In a complete reversal of traditional roles, my other half is looking forward to some time away from the hob!  I’m definitely not the cook in our household.